INTERVIEW: Should we question church leadership and are we called to confront teachings when they don’t align with the Bible? This interview was conducted with Women In Apologetics (WIA) with Voices of WIA host, Lori Morrow (LM), as she converses with Nikki Neely Stull (NNS) on the Protestant Reformation, how it shaped our church history, and why it matters for us today.
LM: What Was The Reformation, generally?
NNS: The word Reformation in general has everything to do with change or a new way to look at things. It’s a shift or transformation of thinking where actions follow.
The Protestant Reformation was a movement of religious reform from the Roman Catholic church that really took off in the early 1500s because of the differences in Scripture interpretation and the actions that followers were taking because of that interpretation. It started well before that, however, with many taking a stand for the truths of Scripture, but wouldn’t really make a huge impact until the the 1500s because of the change in how information was spread (namely, the Gutenberg printing press, ready for use in 1450 that allowed for information to spread quickly because no one was handwriting pamphlets or anything anymore. The Reformation resulted in a whole new branch of Christianity called Protestantism (essentially, a protest against the teachings of the Church at the time). Today, Protestants are really any Christian denomination outside of Catholicism.
Steve Lawson said, “The Reformation was essentially a crisis over which authority should have primacy. Rome claimed the church’s authority lay with Scripture and tradition, Scripture and the Pope, Scripture and church councils. But the Reformers believed that the authority belonged to Scripture alone.”
The Reformation was sparked when the church recruited a famous preacher at the time (a German Dominican friar) named John Tetzel to help with promotion and sale of indulgences. Essentially, the church was promoting the ideology of purgatory which is still taught by many congregations and denominations today. However, at the time, it was a common belief taught by the Church that purgatory was a holding place for people after they died but before a person entered heaven where they paid for the actions that they participated in on earth. The church taught that individuals would remain in purgatory until they had essentially paid for their sins.
Then, they were everyone that they could get an indulgence, which essentially was a pardon from purgatory for their relatives if they paid with money. They would do something (like say so many prayers as they climb the stairs of ascension in Rome until they reached the top or other tasks) and then pay a fee in order to earn the pardon for their loved one from a Pardoner. The pardon (which was just a piece of paper signed by the pardoner) would basically say that they had earned less time in purgatory for their loved one or that they had sprung their loved one out of purgatory into paradise. And since no one could read the Scriptures for themselves, they didn’t know that that was so wrong on so many levels. Not to mention the manipulation for money, there’s also theological issues. Even if one believes in purgatory, there’s nothing in Scripture that teaches about the indulgences AND it completely misrepresents what Jesus did on the cross making works part of salvation.
While there had been others who had pointed out these issues before, a German Augustinian Monk named Martin Luther recognized that this was wrong and started thinking through everything the church was doing at the time. He took a stand by writing out 95 Thesis or Issues that he had with the teachings of the Church. He nailed them to the door of Castle Church in Wittenberg, Germany (kind of a bulletin board for the town). It was taken down, printed on the printing press, and it spread like wildfire!
LM: Why is it considered important at the time?
NNS: The greatest significance of the Reformation was that the Bible was not actively available to everyone in a language that they could read and understand for themselves, so they were relying on the Church to read and interpret it for them. Everything was in Latin.
Unfortunately, that led to quite a bit of misinterpretation by the Church and a manipulation of power that allowed for Church leaders to take advantage, even financial advantage of their congregations.
Like I already mentioned, one of the ways they did this was through the preaching of indulgences. Leo X (the Pope at the time) was trying to rebuild St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome and hired John Tetzel to sell indulgences to raise money for that, because of his style of preaching that drew in so many people. He used to say: “As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs.”
The Reformers understood that if people could read Scripture for themselves, they would not be listening to what preachers like John Tetzel were saying!
It was imperative to the leaders of the movement to get Scripture into the hands of the people in a language that they understood!
SIDE NOTE: The Five Solas were written as a kind of anthem that they were leading under…
5 SOLAS (primary to the movement): Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christo, Soli Deo Gloria – Scripture Alone, by Faith Alone, through Grace Alone, by Christ Alone, to the Glory of God Alone.
Sola Scriptura – Scripture Alone: means that the Bible is (1) the final supreme authority over the church (not traditions, man’s words, etc.), (2) is sufficient to equip believers with all that is necessary to be saved, and (3) is clear, meaning that any person can read Scripture for themselves and discover the basic way of salvation (this doesn’t mean every single passage is easy to understand).
Sola Fide – Faith Alone: When Scripture talks about justification by faith, it means that when someone repents of their sins and by faith trusts in Christ for forgiveness of their sins, they are “justified” (declared righteous) by God and have peace with God. Faith alone means that we can’t earn our salvation by any amount of good works we do. We receive salvation as a gift by having faith in Christ’s sacrificial atonement on the cross on our behalf. “For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.” Romans 3:28
Sola Gratia – Grace Alone: says sinners are saved as an unearned gift of God’s grace, “not as a result of works, so that no one may boast” (Eph 2:8-9)
Sola Christo – Christ Alone: emphasizes the exclusivity of Jesus’ role in salvation: “No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6)
Soli Deo Gloria – to the Glory of God Alone: says that the purpose of creation, salvation, and everything – including our goal as Christians – is the glory of God “that God may be all in all.” (1 Cor 15:28)
LM: Is it still important to us today?
NNS: We see the Reformers as examples to us of several things:
- They weren’t concerned about their reputation. I think of a kid (like mine) in middle school starting to feel like everything their parents do is an embarrassment. I heard one kid say: “I have a reputation! Please don’t ruin it!” Makes me laugh, BUT Jesus did not consider His own reputation either. Not only did He leave heaven, but when he got here, he ate with sinners and prostitutes and tax collectors. The Disciples too – who after the fact, were persecuted and martyred for the TRUTH. The Reformers knew that if they were going to stand for truth, they would probably lose everything – and they were willing to do it anyway.
- Scripture was primary – even the other four Solas revolve around Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone). Martin Luther was excommunicated from the church and went on trial for heresy for everything he was teaching. They told him that if he didn’t denounce his teachings, that he would be condemned. His response has been an inspiration to people even today!
He said, during his trial: “Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Holy Scriptures or by clear reason (for I can believe neither pope nor councils alone, as it is clear that they have erred repeatedly and contradicted themselves), I consider myself convicted by the testimony of Holy Scripture, which is my basis; my conscience is captive to the Word of God. Thus I cannot and will not recant, because acting against one’s conscience is neither safe nor sound. Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me. Amen.”
- And because of the other two, it shows us today why it’s important for us to know Scripture, to know Truth, to know what we believe and why we believe it so that we can then identify when things are false and take a stand against those things.
LM: Who were the major players in the Reformation?
NNS: It depends on how far you want to look back in history!
Jesus and His Disciples were Reformers who took a stand against the teachings of the Church at the time.
But the major players in the Protestant Reformation were scattered throughout Europe in the 15th, 16th and into the 17th century. I mean, of course, Martin Luther, whom we’ve already mentioned, but there were others before him who didn’t have the benefit of information flow and spread and many after him.
After the Black Death wiped out ⅓ of the population of Europe in the mid 1300s, John Wycliffe began translating the Bible into English, he was burned at the stake in 1384 before he finished his translation, for going against the Catholic Church. It was definitely illegal for the general populace to have a copy of the Bible in their own language. BUT, it set the tone for change.
In 1415, John Huss was promised safe conduct to his hearing for his statements against Catholic Church teaching, and was accused of being a Wycliffite or a Lollard (a follower of John Wycliffe). He was taken and imprisoned instead of given safe conduct and at his trial he wasn’t allowed to defend himself but also refused to recant! He was declared a heretic and was burned at the stake.
Later that century, John Gutenberg invented the movable type printing press and the Vatican library was founded, but still, the Church insisted that only Church leaders should have access to important books, including the reading of the Bible!
Interestly, just 40 years later – just to put things into perspective, Columbus made it to America! So all of this is happening at the same time!
Enter the 16th century where Luther is walking through a vicious storm and is struck by lightning! He cried out to Saint Anna that if he lived, he would join a monastery! He did later that month!
Just to continue keeping things in perspective, Ponce de Leon reached FL, and a few years later, Martin Luther (1483-1546) nailed the 95 Thesis to the door. And at the same time that the Reformation is beginning in Germany, Ulrich Zwingli (1484-1531) is starting a Reformation of the same kind in Switzerland.
Then of course, enter William Tyndale (1494-1536) who was the Reformer of England, successfully translated the Bible into English right in the middle of the Reformation as Martin Luther is translating it into German. Tyndale was later exiled from England and then was hung and burned at the stake.
In the later 16th century, there was Heinrich Bullinger (1504-1575) who was essentially Ulrich Zwingli’s successor and would carry on his work to continue the Reformation in Switzerland even into the 1600s where he fought for theological change!
Then there’s John Calvin (1509-1564) in France who is hailed even today as someone who “propounded truth more clearly than any other man that ever breathed, knew more of Scripture, and explained it more clearly.” Charles Spurgeon
John Knox (1514-1574) in Scotland who is known as a Puritan but who preached on the platform of the authority of Scripture.
LM: What can the Reformation teach us about discussion and debate?
NNS: I think it teaches us how important it is to know Scripture, to know Truth, and to know exactly what we believe and why. If we know that, we can recognize when something is false. We can ask the right questions and present information in a healthy way.
Unfortunately, there’s something to be said about how information is passed today – just because we have MORE information passing more quickly, doesn’t mean that people are smarter or that they use that information well. Especially with online conversations.
And because of that, we should be careful how and when we respond. Maybe even ask, “Would I willingly have this conversation in person?”
LM: How does the reformation affect us as women?
NNS: The Church and society at the time wasn’t really concerned with what women thought or did or anything. In some cases, yes, and it wasn’t an oppressive situation or anything like that, but it was just a different societal perspective than what we have now.
Katherina Van Bora ended up marrying Luther after fleeing a war zone and abandoning her position in the convent. All of the ladies there left, realizing that what the Church was teaching was wrong.
That group of ladies had pledged their life to something – to the Church and to serve God. When they realized the truth, they changed everything in their life to reflect that. Just as Luther and the other Reformers did.
Reminds me of King Josiah from 2 Kings. He was 8 years old when he became king. He is known for finding books of Scripture and changing everything in his Kingdom to line up with what it taught.
That group of women during the Reformation did that same thing! And we should be willing to do the same!
LM: What should be our biggest takeaways from the Reformation?
NNS: I quoted Luther’s famous trial speech earlier. The part we really need to remember is when He said, “I consider myself convicted by the testimony of Holy Scripture. My conscience is captive to the Word of God. Acting against one’s conscience is neither safe nor sound. Here I stand; I can do no other.”
This should be our perspective in how we live our life and how we respond to others.
Also, I mentioned earlier, the three things that all the Reformers represent:
- They weren’t concerned about their reputation.
- Scripture was the primary authority outside of God himself as God’s Word.
- And because of the other two, it shows us today why it’s important for us to know Scripture, to know Truth, to know what we believe and why we believe it so that we can then identify when things are false and take a stand against those things.
YouTube Interview conducted LIVE on the Women In Apologetics Channel.
